Cruise capacity

[PaulB]

Having a discussion with friends in regards to cruise holidays, and one asked whether cruise lines are sailing at full capacity. I understand the closer to the date of sailing, if there are empty rooms then they can put deals in place, but are there many ships that wouldn't have filled the capacity?

[FJB]

My guess is that most cruises are now sailing at pre-rona capacities here in the US. Not sure about Europe cruises though since some countries still have restrictions in place. Of course January is historically a slow month so ships may not be at 100% but I would guess they are still at 90%+. 
 

This is just my educated guess - YMMV

[PaulB]

@FJB so would they be operating at a loss would you think if they don't fill the ships?

[Woody14]

4 hours ago, PaulB said:

@FJB so would they be operating at a loss would you think if they don't fill the ships?

most cruise companies don't say what the break even point is but when cruising restarted and they were sailing at 50% capacity they were all loosing money (just less than when they were not sailing at all) likely they need about 80-90% capacity to break even.    This is one of the reasons that the older less fuel efficient / less amenity ships are getting  phased out.   I big contributor to profits is all the things that are over and above the cruise fare (alcohol, excursions, shops, specialty dining, casino, et all).    One other note on capacity which can cause confusion, they list capacity as the double occupancy numbers (2 people per cabin) but in reality they can and most often sail at numbers above that since they have a maximum number of passengers they can have on the ship which accounts for having 3 or 4 passengers in some cabins.    Most cruise lines are striving for 105-115% capacity on all sailings.

[Kendall James-Vargas]

@FJBI'm sure this is dependent on the cruise line, but I would say most U.S. based ships are cruising at full capacity. 

I think the threshold for "operating at a loss" is likely not full capacity. Not all sailings get filled to full capacity, but I would say anything about 80% capacity is at least breaking even. I remember sailing when it was under 50% capacity during the pandemic, and the cruise lines were most definitely operating at a loss. The fact that the ships were sailing again was huge! So I would say a sailing boat at that time period was at least is generating some income verses a sitting boat. 

@Woody14 That's exactly what I was thinking! Although, I didn't think about the goals of over 100% capacity. That's a great point. 

 

Edited January 13, 2023 by Kendall James-Vargas

[PaulB]

@FJB@Woody14 that's really interesting. You dont tend to think about how much they need to fill before they break even

[LukeJ]

@PaulBsame thing happens with planes and hotels. Everything needs a place where they need to reach before making profits. 

[Kendall James-Vargas]

@LukeJ That's true. Most operations set goals to turn a profit, but every industry has a different threshold. 

[FJB]

14 hours ago, PaulB said:

@FJB so would they be operating at a loss would you think if they don't fill the ships?

I would guess anything less than 80% is not profitable but I really don’t know.  I watched a documentary a year or two ago following a one week cruise behind the scenes - the profit center is the onboard stuff - shops, casinos, bingo, specialty restaurants, etc. 

[PaulB]

Yes that's true. The age old mantra they probably will be getting through to workers is sell, sell and sell again. So overall, they may even sneak past the profit margins

[LukeJ]

@PaulB the companies may not want to make profits "on paper" as they would require to pay tax. 

[Kendall James-Vargas]

@LukeJ That's an intriguing thought. How do you think cruise lines could hide profitable earnings?

[PaulB]

@Kendall James-Vargas I guess they could hide profits with bonuses for staff etc, and offset it against expenses

[3Sisters]

@LukeJ I'm sure there are ways to make business taxes appear differently on paper than in real life. I wonder if utilizing overseas staffing gives the cruise lines any sort of tax relief. Speaking of the unknowns of cruising, there is truly a whole other side to cruising guests, like myself, are unfamiliar with. Aside from the business portion of cruise operations, the behind-the-scenes logistics that go into cruising is a whole new world to me. Apparently there are lots of secret codes onboard. Have you ever heard any other these codes before? I have heard "Oscar, Oscar, Oscar" on a more recent cruise. Come to find out that means "man overboard."

Also, the medical facilities on the decks below are very intricate. The ship's medical capabilities are truly amazing. They even offer certain necessary pharmaceuticals in case of an emergency circumstance. I feel very secure while cruising, knowing there are trained medical personnel and facilities onboard.

[PaulB]

@3Sisters well it's more than just a cruise I guess. It's more like a city on water. So when you think what's needed to run and put in place things for a city, then that's what's needed behind the scenes on a cruise ships. Does anyone know the number of staff that work on a ship?

[Woody14]

22 hours ago, PaulB said:

Does anyone know the number of staff that work on a ship?

it varies by ship and by cruise line,   some of the high end lines are nearly 1 crew member for every 2 passengers but the the main stream lines are usually in the 1 crew for every 3 or 4 crew members.   For example in the last year I was on:

Carnival Panorama which has capacity of 4008 pax (max 5,146 occupancy) and has 1,450 crew 

Celebrity Eclipse capacity 2,850 pax and crew of 1,271

Royals Voyager of the Seas capacity 3,602 (max 4,000) crew 1,200

 

[3Sisters]

@Woody14 Thanks for sharing your knowledge here. Your estimate of crew per guest ratio seems pretty spot on. It's very intriguing that the ratio is diluted for the more affordable "main stream" cruise lines. Since I haven't sailed on a luxury ship before, I have nothing to compare it to, but I would say the service on some of these smaller, more upscale lines is likely better. The crew is likely more relaxed and content because their workload is lesser, and I'm sure the overall customer service is better. I appreciate the examples you shared.

I enjoyed reading this article that clarifies what each crew member does onboard. https://www.cruisehive.com/know-crew-members-cruise/5147

[PaulB]

@Woody14 thank you, that was quite surprising to hear. It's larger than I would have been expecting 

[Kendall James-Vargas]

@Woody14 These examples are great! Do you think that ship size usually dilutes its guest to crew ratio due to saving money at the bottom line? 

I really enjoyed reading through these secret cruise codes! I tend to always view cruising from a guests perspective, and learning more about the backend it so fun. It's probably best I don't understand what is being said on the speaker system because I think it could alarm guests unnecessarily, when the emergency doesn't pertain to everyone. I definitely don't want to hear "Code Red." That means an illness has broken out onboard. Thankfully, I haven't heard that on a ship before.

For the most part, I don't think these codes need to be used too often, but they are important to have in such an event. "Zulu" means a fight has broken out! I have, thankfully, never been to the police area of a ship. Do you think the security area onboard has a holding area for obscene cruise guests? 

[Woody14]

1 hour ago, Kendall James-Vargas said:

@Woody14 These examples are great! Do you think that ship size usually dilutes its guest to crew ratio due to saving money at the bottom line? 

I think a factor that probably is overlooked is there are probably not a huge difference in the number of crew that actually operate the ship if it is big or small.   All the same stuff has to get done and they all run 24 hrs a day.     So the big difference would come on the ratio's actually dealing with guests, I am not sure if I have ever seen a detailed break down on that.

 

The code I least like to hear is bravo, bravo, bravo - which is for a fire

[FJB]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:48 AM, PaulB said:

 It's larger than I would have been expecting 

That’s what she said! (Sorry I couldn’t resist that)

[PaulB]

@FJB I think it was the other way around she said

[Kendall James-Vargas]

@Woody14 I agree, back-end ship operations demand a more general amount of crew no matter the size of the ship, but the front-end crew do so much, nonstop! I can't imagine the stress the staff must feel now that cruise lines are trying to operate with a lower crew count. Most of the customer service crew wear several hats, shifting working roles throughout the day. It seems the front-end, customer service crew to guest ratio is more diluted than the back-end, non-customer service crew to guest ratio.  Usually the back-end crew only have one constant job role, instead of the continuous shifting of roles like the front-end staff. 

@FJB That's one way to add some comic relief!